User talk:Pcwrcw
Welcome Welcome to the Malazan Wiki, and thanks for your edit to the The Bonehunters/Extended Dramatis Personae page. There's a lot to do around here, so I hope you'll stay with us and make many more improvements. :Need help? The is a useful page, here you can read about how to successfully do the most common tasks on the wiki. :Questions? You can ask at the or on the "discussion" page associated with each article, or post a message on my talk page. :Want to talk Malazan stuff? We try to keep discussion here related to the task at hand: building a great wiki. There are already great Malazan discussion communities such as the Malazan Empire forums, the Malazan subreddit or the Malazan Art Guild and you would be wise to join at least one of them – most of us are already there too. We are happy to have you here, and look forward to working with you! :ArchieVist (talk) 20:04, September 14, 2016 (UTC) Bonehunter Extended DP Hi, Pcwrcw. Thanks for updating this page. I should have explained the change I made earlier on modifying Ruthan Gudd's formatting from bold to italic, but it looks like you figured it out. Let me know if I can be of any assistance! --ArchieVist (talk) 18:18, September 15, 2016 (UTC) :I suspect that if you're having a hard time you must be using the visual editor? That's where the page you are editing looks pretty similar to the final page as published, and there are a bunch of icons to work with at the top of the screen. I've never used it. I stick to the classic editor, which looks a bit like program code. I highly recommend it if you're not put off by mild coding. If you select the arrow next to the edit button, classic editor comes up as an option if you want to check it out. :I found this page on the visual editor. http://community.wikia.com/wiki/Help:Formatting_pages :To create your V header it looks like you place your cursor in front of the W, select "Sub-heading 1" from the format drop down list, then type your V and press enter. :On the classic editor you just type 3 equal signs then the V then 3 more equal signs. Like this: V :Let me know if any of this is helpful or if you'd rather I go ahead and add the headers. :Also, thanks for the kind words. I'm glad you enjoy the site. Your contribution is very much appreciated!--ArchieVist (talk) 23:10, September 15, 2016 (UTC) I broke up the I/J and U/V headers to maintain continuity with the rest of the page, but left XYZ as a catch-all. My personal rules of thumb for including a character on the Extended DP are: 1. Include any named character no matter how small the role, even if someone just mentions their name. You never know which minor character will show up again in a later book. 2. I usually don't include gods/goddesses if their name is only used in an oath (Ex: Hood take you!). But if someone mentions that Hood did something, then I include him. 3. Unnamed characters -- I try to include them if they did something significant. We have an Unnamed characters page we put them in and can link to from the DP. If the unnamed character does a lot, is particularly significant, or might be referenced by other pages (like Ganoes Paran's father) we'll create a whole page for them. Your listing for the Avower might fit one of these categories, but I don't remember the book well enough to know for sure. Enjoy your Bonehunters reread! --ArchieVist (talk) 23:12, September 16, 2016 (UTC) Style notes Hi, Pcwrcw! Looks like the reading is progressing. Good job on adding all these characters. I have a couple of suggestions: 1. You only to need to add a link for the first instance of a word. So, for example, you don't need to link to the Soliel page for every follower of Soliel. Just for the first follower who appears on the list. 2. It's possible to link to an article but display a different name. For instance, the Grey Goddess entry is currently a dead red link, but it is possible to make it a direct link to Poliel while displaying the Grey Goddess name. I'm not sure how it's done with the editor you are using, but I can fix it after you are done, if needed. 3. You can take out the clarification next to the Avower. Any confusion would be cleared up when a reader clicks on the link. Keep up the good work! --ArchieVist (talk) 20:20, September 18, 2016 (UTC) :Hi, Pcwrcw. Are you having issues with the editor? It looks like you're bolding punctuation marks?--ArchieVist (talk) 00:24, September 25, 2016 (UTC) Don't worry. You're not causing problems. How do the regular unbolded punctuation marks look after you publish the update and review the page? They should look fine or else the whole site would look strange. Go ahead and remove the bolding, but I'm curious how the pages appear on your screen.--ArchieVist (talk) 02:19, September 25, 2016 (UTC) :The best way (only way?) to learn how to work on the Wiki is to plunge right in and do it. Keep up the good work!--ArchieVist (talk) 22:42, September 30, 2016 (UTC) Great job!! Belated welcome from me as well :) Looks like you are doing a fantastic job adding to The Bonehunters EDP. I am sure that in the future, those EDPs are going to be amongst the most useful pages for readers on the Wiki so your contribution is really going to make a difference! See you around Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 16:12, September 19, 2016 (UTC) Sorrel Tawrith I'm not familiar with the name. It's likely there to hint at other things beyond what we've been shown. I checked the Tor.com reread site and one of the readers had the same question you did. See a response in comment 2. http://www.tor.com/2012/05/18/malazan-re-read-of-the-fallen-the-bonehunters-chapter-eighteen/ Your proposed solution is a good one. We have similar entries in other books for people who get a name and virtually nothing else. You never know, maybe they'll turn up in a book still to be published. --ArchieVist (talk) 23:23, September 24, 2016 (UTC) Hello I think it is time for me to say hello and thanks as well. You maybe made BH/EDP the most edited page on the wiki. ;) I'm the admin of the german version. Here I'm mostly adding images and language links as I also take care of the DeviantArt-page of the wiki. If you have questions related to this topics feel free to ask. =) cheers, Coltaine93 (talk) 21:48, September 29, 2016 (UTC) BH EDP Hi Pcwrcw, Very nice to see new people hanging around and editing the wikia. I failed to welcome you, but you know I'm not really the welcoming type. We usually leave that to Egwene or AV. Apologies for that. As far as the EDP is concerned, I did notice a certain number of...oddities shall we say. Let's take an example. I go to the EDP page and I see Burn, the sleeping goddess. Since Burn already has a page, 'the sleeping goddess' really doesn't need a page. Since you linked 'the sleeping goddess' as well, the wikia creates a non-existent page on 'the sleeping goddess', when it is actually just Burn, who already has a page. So, in short, if a character already has a page, it seems a little frivolous to create a new page for 'the sleeping goddess'. You may not realize it, but you are creating a new page for 'the sleeping goddess' as well. Just felt I should point that out. One other thing. The descriptions in EDP are pertty accurate, but we don't usually put them there. Let's take an example. Karpolan Demesand, Merchant-Mage, Trygalle Trade Guild This is an original entry. Notice how the character is named, his affiliation is given and that's it. There are no descriptions such as 'From Darujhistan, Malazan equal of High Mage' etc. As for the other type: Kellanved, founder of the Malazan Empire (with Dancer), and the First Malazan Emperor (before Laseen) It's enough to identify Kellanved as founder of Malazan Empire, or former Emperor of Malazan Empire. King of Sepik, brutally forced to watch the complete slaughter of his people by the Tiste Edur, he was the last to die (in Ahlrada Ahn flashback) The King of Sepik can be identified only as say 'King of the Island of Sepik'. The details you can put in his personal page. When you create his page, you can write all the details provided in the book. That he was forced to watch the slaughter of his people in Ahlrada Ahn's flashback etc. However, for EDP purposes, {King of Sepik, King of a Malazan Principality} is more than enough. The details are for when you create his page. Anyhow, I love the work you've been doing. I'm surprised you started off with EDP's, I took a lot of time to get used to them. You must be pretty smart to catch up to things quickly. *Thumbs up Finally, I'm afraid you've got the wrong guy. I do not draw fanart. I really suck at drawing, so if I drew something, people would go blind and stop reading Malazan. So in the interests of people still reading Malazan, I don;t draw. If there is anything you feel is confusing you, drop me a message. As a relatively new guy, I know you might feel that a certain question is stupid to ask, but every small question counts and is important. Hope you enjoy editing the Wikia, and keep up the great work. Toctheyounger (talk) 05:12, September 30, 2016 (UTC) EDP fine points Don't worry about getting things wrong, Pcwrcw, we've all been there. The good thing is that we all keep an eye on each others edits and between us pick up most things that somehow got mangled along the way. So whilst at the moment you may be on the receiving end of suggestions on how to improve something, no doubt, you'll pay back the favour soon enough ;) We all have the same objective - to do justice to the Malazan world and give it the best Wiki we can :) I just had a quick look at the EDP and it is really getting there however, you ought to trim down some of the entries even further. The format is very much based on how characters are described in the official DPs which normally means just a short reference to who that character is at the point we meet it. The information you have added for Ardata and Carrier for example is definitely too detailed and instead of having it in the EDP, you ought to add the info to the character's actual page. An entry that needs changing for a different reason is the one for the Bridgeburner spirits. They ought to be individually listed in the EDP as a reader might be looking just for one of the names and would not necessarily look under the collective. I also just noticed that you have added info to the entries from the original DP. You should only add info from the removed headers but not add anything more. So the only info for Kulat should be 'a villager' as that is all we get in the official DP. EDP's are basically DPs with the missing names added - they are not meant to contain extended information if that makes sense. I appreciate that you may feel a bit despondent about removing all that hard work but hopefully you'll be able to add quite a bit of it to the relevant character pages which are probably just as much in need of a bit of TLC as the EDP was. Hope you see all this re-editing as a training exercise for taking on the next EDP!!!! Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 15:44, October 1, 2016 (UTC) EDP and Messages Hi, Pcwrcw. I'm not sure what's going on with your email notifications. I did send you a note on 9/30, but that was the only one since 9/24. You can always select the History option on your Talk page if you want to see the date/time of messages. The BH EDP is looking really good. I agree with Egwene where I usually keep the author's descriptions. The two exceptions I can think of are when the description is missing (as you point out) or when the description doesn't make sense if the entries are alphabetized instead of left in the order published. For example: *Icarium, a Jhag *Mappo, his companion Mappo's description doesn't work when there are twenty entries between them. By the way, have you updated your profile to "Don't show all ads"? It makes the site more bearable. --ArchieVist (talk) 21:40, October 2, 2016 (UTC) BH EDP individuals Glad you took my post as it was meant. I am really impressed by your dedication to get the EDP just right! Well, having had a look, here are my thoughts: *Totally agree with your sentiment regards Corabb - his entry needs an addition. I would go for the DP description from House of Chains 'an officer in Leoman’s company' and no brackets, as I don't think we know that he has become Leoman's 2nd at the beginning of BH. *Same with Carrier - you need to take out the reference to his name as that only transpires as part of the story and is quite a significant moment. *With regards to Ardata... she is a bit of a tricky one as we don't want to spoil the revelation who she is but not so keen on quoting actual text... I wonder if we could say something like 'mystery patron of Mogora' - what do you think? *The entry: Iron Prophet, aka 'King Iskar Jarak' needs turning around - as Iskar Jarak is the name, you ought to list him under that and have 'the Iron Prophet as definition given that we are introduced to both phrases at the same time. The bit about 'king' you can leave out as it comes later in the book. By the way, as the term Iron Prophet did not come up in search results, I have created a redirect for it. *Kallor - describe him as 'High King' as the title is allocated to him as of the glossary from GotM. *Kilmandaros - take out the bit about obsessions as it is too much of a subjective statement - she is simply called 'an Elder Goddess' in quite a number of previous DPs and is actually called an Elder God in the glossary of BH just to create some confusion! *LOL - love your description of Kruppe, it fits right in with the one from the GotM DP. *Master Investigator - rather than giving away part of the story simply call him 'an official in Kartool'. *Murillio - don't think the word 'consort' is accurate - Darujhistan citizen maybe... *Naval D'natha - take out 'possessed (for a time) by Soliel' as it is part of the plot *Nefarias Bredd - how about adding 'fabled soldier in the Bonehunters'? *Phaed - take out the reference to her being Nimander's daughter. Braven Tooth thought her to be Nimander's daughter but we don't have any reliable confirmation of that - in fact, most of the story seems to indicate she isn't and in the DP for Reaper's Gale she is called 'a Tiste Andii, offspring of Anomander Rake'. Just 'a Tiste Andii' is probably sufficient. *Queen of Dreams - as with the Iron Prophet, list her under her name and use 'Queen of Dreams' as description - maybe with the addition 'a goddess'. *Rat - given that there are a lot of rats - we can create a page for this one under her name with a disambiguation page to differentiate her from the city of Y'Ghatan. (I'll try and do this later or tomorrow) Hope you agree with those changes. Overall, you really have done an amazing job. You can be proud of what you have achieved here and you definitely have the thanks of everyone here :) Ahmmm... *tries to think of a suitable bribe*.... will you be adding the other details as well, i.e. references and whether characters appear in person or are (referred to only)? If you check out the GotM EDP as an example, you'll see what I mean. Just a thought... ;) Egwene ExtDP references The references are all chapter based, so: 1. If a character is referred to in Chapter 1 and then shows up in the same chapter, then the full appearance overrides the referred to only. Just a Chapter 1 goes next to their name. 2. If a character is referred to in Chapter 1 and then shows up in Chapter 2, then they get a (referred to only)1 and (full appearance)2. 3. If a character makes a full appearance in Chapter 1 and then gets referred to in Chapter 2, we only care about the full appearance. They get a Chapter 1 next to their name. 4. There's no case where you would have (full appearance)1 (referred to only)2. Also, take a look at how the footnotes are done on some of the completed DP pages like Gardens of the Moon/Extended Dramatis Personae. We keep the chapters together, so that everyone involved in Chapter 1 has the same Chapter 1 footnote, for example. You can also see one of these on the Bonehunters page already with Ipshank and Manask for Chapter 20. If this proves confounding, just note the chapters and we can assist with this. --ArchieVist (talk) 03:03, October 4, 2016 (UTC) :On another note, the entries for "Saur Bathada and Kholb Harat" and "Steth and Aystar" should get broken up so they each have their own lines. "Jessa and Jessa" is fine since they are minor characters with the same name who appear only together.--ArchieVist (talk) 03:09, October 4, 2016 (UTC) Sorting alphabetically Hello Pcwrcw - see you are busy again *thumbs up*. Just saw you changed the sorting sequence for 'Y'Ghatan - the apostrophe precedes the letter A when you are sorting alphabetically. So Y'Ghatan should go back to the top of the Y section and there are a few others that need changing elsewhere. Didn't looked at that aspect yesterday. You can use the A-Z listings under the navigation menu on the left hand side as a guide if you come across any unusual symbols in names. I am really glad you have done the EDP for The Bonehunters - it is one of my favourite books of the entire series. I ought to cross-check the EDP with the list I made of the Malaz 14th Army. Maybe I'll wait until you have done the refs though. I think I have got most of the soldiers. I hope you'll do Reaper's Gale next as I have not yet completed the list of those who where in the 14th between Y'Ghatan and the next big battle! Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 18:44, October 4, 2016 (UTC) :Unless it's a characteristic of UK/Canada English, I'm certain that the apostrophe does not come into consideration when determining alphabetic order. So Y'Ghatan would be treated as YGhatan (D'rek as Drek, etc.) when determining placement. I've checked some official American style guides (AP, Chicago, even Excel) and they agree. My guess is that when Wikia puts Y'Ghatan at the beginning of their Y list it's because they're using ASCII character sorting instead of normal English language sorting.--ArchieVist (talk) 00:32, October 7, 2016 (UTC) --ArchieVist (talk) 00:32, October 7, 2016 (UTC) BH DP & Deck of Dragons I've never included any Deck of Dragons cards in my ExtDP pages.--ArchieVist (talk) 20:59, October 5, 2016 (UTC) :Just think of the apostrophe as a letter takes precedence over A. So for example Apsal'ara would be before Apsalaara if there was such a name but it would follow on from Apsak'ara (again if there was such a name). Hope that makes sense. The A-Z seems to have disappeared... no idea why it now says content. I'll fix it when I get a chance. In the meantime, one option is to copy the names into a word document and use the ascending a-z sorting function. When I was compiling the list of the 14th, it really was a bit like detective work. Trying to match a soldiers description in one part with that in another which contained a name. And as you said - some soldiers turned up with re-enforcements. It's a jumble alright and that's before we get to people who turn up in several different squads like Tavos Pond and others who seem to have died but then reappear as in the case of Bowl. Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 21:22, October 5, 2016 (UTC) Thank you Thank you very much for your kind words. Although, if you look at the entries that people like JR and Egwene make, you might take your words back. Now, those are concise and pointed entries. I would suggest you look at them as a model for your work when you edit pages. Those two really set the standards. Of course we all have our styles, but its important for everyone to have a similar format. The wikia can get pretty disorganized of we don't follow certain standards and what these two have done is set that format. Anyhow, keep up your good work on the EDP. I know that feeling, when a red link goes to the brown (blue?) shade. Yours Malazanaically, Toctheyounger (talk) 20:38, October 9, 2016 (UTC) Congratulations! Great job on the BH ExtDP! They're more complicated than they seem, and you picked up on the details very quickly. You also now have written the 10th longest article on the entire site. I made a minor change to fix the P/E issue. Any idea what you want to do next? --ArchieVist (talk) 00:51, October 12, 2016 (UTC) :Well done, Pcwrcw! Amazing debut editing!!!! :) :Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 06:26, October 12, 2016 (UTC) New Projects If you're interested in tackling another DP these are all free (from the Dujek's Command Tent page): BB Blood and Bone CG The Crippled God DD Dust of Dreams FN Fiends of Nightmaria HC House of Chains MT Midnight Tides RG Reaper's Gale TH Toll the Hounds The blue status for DP's on the Malazan wiki:Adopt a chapter page usually just means that the published character list was copied and sorted. In some cases the list may be done but missing references. They're not necessarily claimed. If you check the history and no one's touched it in weeks or months, it's free. If you want to try your hand at chapter summaries, the key is breaking the chapters down by location (and possibly character) and writing in present tense. The level of detail is up to you. If you look at ones already done, some are short and some are long. Add links if you're comfortable. They should only be used for the first occurrence of a name, location, object, etc. We can help with that or do it for you. And if you join malazanempire.com, Egwene, Toc, Coltaine, and myself are all there under the same names as here.--ArchieVist (talk) 02:20, October 13, 2016 (UTC) :A volunteer who says 'any job'???!!! A dream come true! AV, maybe we should give Pcwrcw ALL the jobs - I mean delegating is all the rage, isn't it?! :Jokes aside, thanks for the offer, Pcwrcw :) If you fancied taking on the DD EDP, that would be fantastic. Some of the EDPs have had info added in an ad-hoc fashion rather than anyone having taken them on as such. I have changed the wording on the DCT page a bit to make that clearer. :But don't restrict yourself to that. There are very few restrictions on where you can edit. Mostly we have added names to some projects to avoid two people doing the same job at the same time which would be a bit of a waste. Why not try and add some of the info which you took out of the Bonhunters EDP to the relevant character pages? It's just a case of slotting it in and adding the reference. Not much different from doing the EDP. All you need to do is make the entry as factual and objective as possible, put it in past tense, give it a reference and press publish :) :Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 13:36, October 13, 2016 (UTC) I have allocated the DD EDP to you in the DCT list. Nothing else needs doing. If you like you can add a temporary note to the EDP page to the effect that you are currently working on this page. The only one here who uses a signature other than the four squiggles is LordofMoonSpawn. If you are interested in having a signature then I would say get in touch with LoMS on his talk page for tips. :Hey, I also use a fancy signature! And I made the sword sig for LordofMoonSpawn. I make fancy signatures on request if you want one. You still just use four tildes (squiggles), but the wiki software inserts a fancy signature instead. -- 00:36, October 16, 2016 (UTC) With regards to adding the info. Don't worry about formatting issues - we'll help you along. It is far more important to be as accurate as possible with regards to the information especially when there is an ambiguity. For example when Broken Tooth says that Phaed is Nimander's daughter. With all the other evidence, it is pretty certain that what we are hearing is rumour gossip. So instead of saying 'X is daughter of Z' you'd say 'X was rumoured to be daughter of Z however that relationship is unconfirmed' or something along those lines. In other words, if there is an ambiguity about a piece of information you need to bring that across. I had one a few days ago... an edit for the Orr estate... from the book it is unclear if there were four guards at the gate in total or four guards on either side each, making eight in total. It can be read either way. I tried to make sure that the Wiki entry reflects the ambiguity. You may say 'but what if I get it wrong?'. Well that's where the referencing comes in. As long as you add references to your entries, readers are able to check for themselves and determine if the information is fact or fantasy ;) You definitely find that you start paying much more attention to slight details. It will add a whole new amazing layer to your reading experience! Have fun :) Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 09:33, October 14, 2016 (UTC) Dust of Dreams Ext DP Well, this is very interesting. It appears that the UK and US versions of the book have somewhat different DPs in the front. I was trying to figure out why you were removing the bold formatting from all of the Bolkando entries. But I had a hunch and checked the previews on the Amazon US and Amazon UK pages and sure enough they are different. Amazon US and Kindle completely drop the Bolkando section. A quick scan shows they also dropped the Akrynnai and Forkrul Assail sections. I didn't check the rest of the list to see if anything else was dropped. Pcwrcw, can you please refer to the DP list from the main Dust of Dreams page so that the Bolkando and etc are treated as bolded entries? That original list seems to have come from the more complete UK version. I had something similar happen on Stonewielder, but in that case it was the entire last page that got dropped. At the time I assumed it was a printer's error.--ArchieVist (talk) 14:57, October 15, 2016 (UTC) :I have moved the discussion about this to the EDPs discussion page so our editorial decisions on the topic are easier for others to follow. :Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 16:11, October 15, 2016 (UTC) Apostrophe Hi Pcwrcw, the A-Z link in the left hand navigation pane should now work. There are two types of apostrophes in circulation. The standard one is ' however, there is also another one which is ‘ this one. I am bit by bit creating re-directs for the second one to ensure that if reader's use the second one, the relevant page comes up in search results. If you check out the A-Z, you'll find that the first apostrophe sorts as previous discussed - so you can use the A-Z to check the sorting for that one - however, ignore the second apostrophe for sorting purposes as the rules differ. Given that we only use the second version in re-directs, this shouldn't affect any sorting. I use e-reader as well as hard copies and find that the apostrophe used varies between the e-books and using the search function for anything which contains one only throws up partial results - I have to search under both versions. If you get to create new pages in the future, it would actually be quite helpful is you created a re-direct for the alternate version at the same time. To do so, just go to an existing re-direct page and copy the alternate apostrophe from there. Noticed you have already made a start on the DD EDP - enjoy :) Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 19:15, October 15, 2016 (UTC)